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21

Sunday, September 15th 2013, 9:24am

WANDALEK: I hope I will be able to be dps and tank with the same gear, once I will make lvl 82 set, and I am planing to change only 3 acc and cape. I prefer aoth set and aoth cape for tanking (I know there is macro for aoth cape, but I won't trust it with the current state of lags)

ISS from RT made my day. The description says +3% def after every attact stackable for 10x and last for 10 sec. However the descriptio doesn't say that it is 10 min buff working the same way like Forge. So basically it is 30% def for almost whole boss fight :D
:shit:

22

Sunday, September 15th 2013, 4:27pm

So as with set skill for def it works exactly how I suppose, I am only wondering if same applies to Lock set skill for dark magic power....

As for tank/DPS with proper statting it's possible to achieve 150k patt on disassemble mode and changing just 3 items (aoth set) 360k pdef buffed (without housekeeper and craft cake) and 250k HP unbuffed. Add to this steady buff from set skill and over 400k pdef and probably round 550k HP, all of this with over 150k patt with 70 lvl elite from CH/R.... So Ch/R is currently most OP class, as basically on same EQ it can tank and DPS + it's one of the most, if not most phisical DPSing class as for now...

achilleas1

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23

Sunday, September 15th 2013, 5:02pm

So Ch/R is currently most OP class, as basically on same EQ it can tank and DPS + it's one of the most, if not most phisical DPSing class as for now...
then NERF IT!! :P:P

24

Monday, September 16th 2013, 8:37am

So as with set skill for def it works exactly how I suppose, I am only wondering if same applies to Lock set skill for dark magic power....

As for tank/DPS with proper statting it's possible to achieve 150k patt on disassemble mode and changing just 3 items (aoth set) 360k pdef buffed (without housekeeper and craft cake) and 250k HP unbuffed. Add to this steady buff from set skill and over 400k pdef and probably round 550k HP, all of this with over 150k patt with 70 lvl elite from CH/R.... So Ch/R is currently most OP class, as basically on same EQ it can tank and DPS + it's one of the most, if not most phisical DPSing class as for now...
Ehm, WD/W can dps and tank with the same gear with the change of aoth set only ;). And W/WD can still pull out more dps than CH/R in the burst. That makes W/WD even more op than champions :D

You did nice job with charplan, but forgot to check the skills ;). Champions strongest dps skill has 470% of main hand dps and is triggered 1-2x per boss fight. Our main dps skill is Shadow Stab (a little stronger than rogues, but still...) Ask any rogue how much damage a Shadow Stab do compared to Low Blow.

Anywhere else than hm of last 1-2 instances equaly geared w/wd can outdps me for 100-1kk dps. (Beth 4th my top is 800k while w/wd pulled out 1.7kk)

I still have to test beth hm with w/wd (so far I was always needed as tank) and to play a little with dmg and patt food but I doubt I can outdps w/wd in burst. Ehm, did I mentioned r/m? No? Guess why :D

I have to admit I am using 1-h hammer and dagger, so my dps could be a little higher with 2-h hammer, but I would loose a lot of rage and second recon :(
:shit:

25

Monday, September 16th 2013, 4:08pm

Well you have rune pulse, from what I have heard (I do not play champion) skill that reset cooldown and make it instant spell on shield form is almost permanent, making it 470*1,2*2(casting time modifier)=1130% DPS skill add to that shadowstab with totally over 600%, electrocution with 565,6 and Rune Overload with 300+ or 400+% don't remember, witch can be there for a while.... So as for skills champion only do not have CC that do not tiggers GCD, as for the rest they are about on same value, supposedly if chain drive pop ups as much as I have heard, than CC will not catch up % difference. As for patt I can buff CH/R much higher, than W/WD, while full buff on W/WD last 6s and rest is 30s long and for champion everything accept 20% from set skill is permanent (at worse CD=buff time). The only difference pro W/WD would be frenzy with 15% DMG and att speed, so basically in 15s burns W/WD would probably do better loosing slightly in next 15s and really badly in next 4,5min, of course much of that depends on fight itself, as CH/R can probably out % W/WD like 2 times.... Of course it wouldn't be that simple, but the fact is that champion DPS will have much more patt than any other phisical class and can selfbuff for more than 600k of patt on cannon glass build, of course having same time fully buffed around 100k of HP. I know that using disassembly mode means less rune pulse, but also it is not like CH/R do not have any other skills to use, moreover on full burn bosses and 2x1h build it wouldn't be so painfull and after full burn CH/R will definitely be the best DPS in whole PT.

As for Wd/W tanking and DPSing in same eq... Well first of all due to almost all the skills have aggro modifier there is really not much to put between CCs... You stay with pretty weak GC hard set skill and Cross Chop + Slash from warrior, maybe not so bad, but also not so cool. I have tested it and it was much worse than both W/WD and WD/S of course you can use WD/S to DPS, but you will have to lvl another subclass to 70 lvl (maybe not so hard) and use chain EQ to tank on WD/W (what is pretty bad) moreover you will have to invest about 500M PT on character to max required both skills to tank on WD/W and DPS on WD/S, what would be more or less painfully. And the most important fact don't mess up tank that can do some decent DPS (definitely not best in PT) and pure DPS. On tank EQ WD/W can buff up to 150 maybe 180k patt loosing tons of HP and def, on those values he would have like 25-30% less pdef than champion (probably more with new set skill) and about 30-40% less HP. Of course skills would be slightly better IMO, so WD/W could probably have less patt, but making even DPS with tanking champion would most probably mean, that he would still have much less pdef and HP. On the other side same EQ on WD/S would mean tops 135k patt, so it would no longer be an DPS. Of course I can do it other way, so wear full DPS gear and tank with it having even less pdef and HP, still it is possible on full burn, as it is possible on every rouge, warrior (including W/M and W/WD) and probably some other classes.

Basically I am playing WD/W/S having both DPS and tank gear with aots set and I can tank bethomia on 165k HP, 82k patt and 125k pdef unbuffed. Hell yeah on bosses that are full burn fights so 15s, sometimes even 30s I can even tank on full dps set with 98k HP, 122k patt and 86k HP, but on same time equally geared champion can go from my DPS set to way over 450k patt while I can reach 300ish for 30s and than drop to 200k while champion wouldn't even drop to 350k, value I can not even reach on full burn and on same EQ have 190k hp ub on shield form, 360k pdef without buffs that can not be used with HP buff and over 180k patt. Of course I can keep up with HP and Def on burn with champion, but I wouldn't suppose my raid would wait 3 mins for every trash group for my buffs to recover. And that's makes CH/R OP, as he can both tank and DPS on exact same equipment, don't even changing 1 rune pice of EQ or whatever you like and being DPSing tank, with full survivability or one of if not the best DPS. And with proper EQ you don't even have to sacrifice survivability on tank or DPS.


As for 4-th boss DPS I have yesterday or 2 days ago do 3.7M DPS on my WD/S excluding DPS from my centaur without sigil and usually I do much better on W/WD on full burn bosses, besides 1.7M is not so good for W/WD. Still W/WD making more DPS than champion doesn't make him more OP, as on full burn fights even W/Ms were never OP and yet they were nerfed, especially that i haven't recently seen any W/WD tanking full run of endgame instance on his ordinary DPS EQ, oh wait I haven't even seen any doing it on tanky EQ.

26

Monday, September 16th 2013, 5:16pm

Rune pulse is indeed spamable in the shield form, but 1) we can't use disassembly form in shield form, 2) any champion that is tank and dps will loose 80% of str in shield form, so the patt will be quite low. Not to mention that that Rune Pulse is supposed to generate extra aggro in shield form and I hope for the fix every patch.

Shadow Stab has close to 600% dps, now lets compare it with CC and its 718%. Also I believe CC has higher str mod (not that makes any difference). Electroluction is even weaker with its 565,6% it can't really compete to lets say Open Flank with 651,2%. Shadow Stab spam rotation is used simply cos Shadow Stab is the strongest skill...

Rune Overload is fine except it is aoe, that means it suffers aoe penalty. Also you may not know but 30-40% hits are usually rezisted by the boss.

And you missed throw with no gcd ;) with 350% dps.

As a dps, means outside of shield form I get 1-2 Rune Pulses during fight, so my usual dps comes from Shadow Stab (600% ) + Rune Overload (350% ). The amount of Rune Overload rezists compensate the throw and 1-2 Rune Pulses. Ch/R average dps is 950% while Rune Overload lasts.
W/WD has CC spam 718%. 950% - 718% = 232%... If you fill your CC spam rotation with any skill higher than 232% you aleady got higher values from skills...


As for WD/W tanking and dpsing in the same gear, I forgot to say it has to swap to W/WD, my bad, thought I wrote it (I should not write on forum at work :).

The abosule values I mentioned in my previous post are not important, the ratio between ch/r and w/wd dps is. We all know absolute numbers depends on buffs and debuffs and bla bla bla, but the ratio is more or less the same. Talking here about two physical dps classes ofc.

Yes, I agree that champion can tank and dps in the same gear and togetger with str/stam stating it makes him extra cheap class to play, but I still think WD/W tanking and swaping to W/WD can do the same.

Yes I agree that ch/r can buff up tremendous patt not only during burst but can keep it also once burst is over, but once w/wd drop patt, ch/r is out of rage for Rune Overload and can only spam Shadow Stab with 600% dps, while W/WD can still spam CC + rotation. Now add a couple of debuffs on the boss and sudenly the gain in % from skills means more dps than raw patt. And the patt benefit is only in the last hm instance, anywhere below % from skills rulez.

My part of WD/W - W/WD being op was just irony man... I just used your own arguments and applied them to another class, and they fit really well :D.

Short resume: CH/R can be dps and tank in the same gear which makes it as cheap as W/WD-WD/W combo. Ch/R has more patt than W/WD but less % on skills, and imho W/WD can pull out more dps atm. Ch/R is very strong combo, but not the strongest one.
:shit:

27

Monday, September 16th 2013, 10:40pm

When forge buff stack (up to 5) is active, battle transfer defense does not work.
When battle transfer defense stack (up to 10) is active, forge buff stack doesn't work and rune pulse cd cannot be reset also.
So battle transfer defense is a useless skill since it doesn't work when forge buff stack is active and since forge and rune pulse reset is so important to a tanking champ, we surely choose forge instead.

I am not sure if it is meant to be like this but I doubt a new skill that +30% pdef is introduced to render it useless to a tanking champ class.

28

Monday, September 16th 2013, 11:04pm

When forge buff stack (up to 5) is active, battle transfer defense does not work.
When battle transfer defense stack (up to 10) is active, forge buff stack doesn't work and rune pulse cd cannot be reset also.
So battle transfer defense is a useless skill since it doesn't work when forge buff stack is active and since forge and rune pulse reset is so important to a tanking champ, we surely choose forge instead.

I am not sure if it is meant to be like this but I doubt a new skill that +30% pdef is introduced to render it useless to a tanking champ class.
I am affraid it was intended to be like this. Shield form - you will get stamina, but loose str, Disassembly mode - you will get str, but you loose stam
The same goes for buffs: you can have either Chain Drive and patt buff, or you can have 30% pdef, but not both at the same time.

Do I like it? NOOO. Do I agree with it? Yes.

Having everything at once would make champions trully op and it would be too much simillar to the "warden can get buffs from all his pets at the same time" situation.
:shit:

Ganondworf

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29

Monday, September 16th 2013, 11:15pm

I don't know what u ppl are complaining about xd, i have the iss now after buffing me i got next:

120k hp and 260k pat to 270k pat depends i get get priest buff amp or awaka (is better) :)

i alrdy had a sigil on me too coming at 345k pat :p , do whatever u want but my build is still perfect :)

30

Tuesday, September 17th 2013, 1:56am

Well I will still claim that WD/W with chain eq is simply poor tank. It is possible, but then you will have to abandon almost every stat with patt, so W/WD will not have same EQ and even if, than it will do poor DPS or will be a poor tank. This do not apply to champion, as he simply convert stats and IMO that makes him OP. I would probably do some adjustment there. Besides I have seen some poorly stated CH/R doing decent DPS, so I assume that making him really endgame would also mean huge improvement in DPS.

As for percentages from what I've read chain drive tiggers outside shield form 3 times less frequent, so I suppose you will have at least one buff per 3 sec. I of course assume, that champion DPS will go for 2x1h with offhand dagger 1.4 speed.

So on 15s combat you can have about 16040 combined dps % on W/WD and you can have 9754,5 on ch/r from shadowstab alone in addition to that you will have rune overload with let's say 10 ticks of 355,2% each witl let's say 1/3 misses, so 1065,4 instead of one shadowstab and I suppose about 5 rune pulse with buff, so 5683,2, so in totall 12600,3%, so I would agree more than W/WD. I haven't really count it before and I really base my CH/R DPS calculation on ADF in new instance W/WD would have ADF lower from CH/R by 20-25% during first 30sec, so close to even DPS on burst fight. Big question about other buffs frenzy from W/WD and speed passive from CH/R. Wep. are also a bit different and pro Warrior.Honsetly IMO DPS should be at least close to even during first 30s or a bit pro warrior, and prom CH later.

31

Tuesday, September 17th 2013, 8:10am

WANDALEK: I already saw W/WD dominating the scrut in beth hm (even over warmages), than swapping to WD/W and tanking it without any difficulties. Hell his tank had more hp than my ch/r can buff and just a little less pdef.

As for Rune Pulse: I have 1-h hammer and dim light (1.8) with Raid IX and Raid VII and my chain drive is more like every 5-6 seconds :(. Not to mention that you calculated the combined dps, but didn't consider dps of 1-h hammer against 2-h axe.

Also there are bosses where you can't just stand and fight, so keep up Rune Overload is impossible and triggering Chain Drive is almost a miracle (Beth 5th when he goes to air every few secs, beth second and Rune Overload is a suicide)

Well, I never said ch/r will be far behind w/wd, I know it will be damn close fight :D
:shit:

32

Tuesday, September 17th 2013, 3:34pm

Well we both have different point of view. And I really like discussions like this (don't get me wrong here, I simply always learn something new).
As for those W/WD swaping to WD/W and tanking I have no idea how they stat their EQ, but as I play WD/W/S and have both DPS EQ I can definitely say, that this shouldn't be possible with bosses killed after burn, well depends on tactic and bethomia is not so difficoult instance... Well once I have tanked 6-th boss from 80 to 0 on my W/WD, so it is possible for ordinary DPS to tank there. On full proper statted chain set I would have 130534 patt 82,5k hp and 83,4k pdef unbuffed. Swaping to WD/W and 120k patt 84,7k HP and 81,8k pdef, so I change to fully statted aoth set as you mentioned and I would have 122,3k HP and 99,8 pdef would still be ridiculously high as for tank. From that I can probably buff dk 270k hp? and just above 300k pdef (or less HP and more def, but it would be just stupid).... It would probably be possible to tank beth with that, but new instance is out of reach and still beth would be really hard especially trash before and after 5-th boss and 6-th boss, where the more HP, the better.
As for DPSing champion I have always assume using raid X and offhand dagger for att speed so craft with 1.4 and really crapy ghosts. As for 5-th boss also comboing on W/WD is not so pice of cake, so he will probably loose much of it, especially that half of burst goes for standing in distance, while same time CH/R would have 3 skills to use (don't remember the CD, so maybe only 2-3 times during whole fight or even 1... but still this would be most likely used during full burn). As for 2-nd I used to burn it so fast, that probably anybody can't match up with W/WD.

As for wep I have mentioned it would be pro W/WD and I agree that usually first 15 sec would be time of W/WD over probably any class, maybe some M/W could keep up with him.

Ganondworf

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33

Tuesday, September 17th 2013, 3:47pm

if you are tanking bosses, ur rune overload never stops

stupid u need rebuff constant up to max for bethomia, else we could farm bethomia hm full run in less then 1h :(

34

Tuesday, September 17th 2013, 6:08pm

Hell I really should not write posts at work :D.

Didn't mean second boss, but third ofc. Rune Overload makes so much bubles its very easy to miss the blue baII on floor.

As for the W/WD dps and tank, I can't really check his items atm, but afaik he already had almost full set of Tyrants and used a couple of str/stam on items.

As for champion weapons, a ch/r on US server did quite a lot of testing and 2-h hammer resulted in higher dps than 1-h hammer and dagger (dim light tho). So based on his tests I also made 2-h hammer, but have only Raid VII in it for now (WTB Raid promo) and still missing Wrath and Fatal runes (ye, I know there was a promo this weekend, but I decided to make hammer 1 hour after the promo).

Atm both hammers are on the same tier 1-h has Wrath and Raid IX, while 2-h has only Raid VII, the dps with 2-h hammer is 10-20% higher. Also those 930 crit more should make quite some difference in the fight. Although future extensive testing and proper runes are needed.
:shit:

Ganondworf

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35

Wednesday, September 18th 2013, 4:13pm

higer damage? urm the dagger gives u more speed, more speed means ur rage will build quick, faster rage means ur aoe will become permanent

u had problems keeping aoe up? well i gues that where u problem is coming from

k i don't give same dmg as 2nd hammer will, but cause of speed i can almost 2x hit faster than 2h which still result same dps maybe even higher in total
secondly u will need speed atks to keep aggro constant as w/m and r/m are op also atm and take aggro rly fast

36

Wednesday, September 18th 2013, 4:44pm

higer damage? urm the dagger gives u more speed, more speed means ur rage will build quick, faster rage means ur aoe will become permanent

u had problems keeping aoe up? well i gues that where u problem is coming from

k i don't give same dmg as 2nd hammer will, but cause of speed i can almost 2x hit faster than 2h which still result same dps maybe even higher in total
secondly u will need speed atks to keep aggro constant as w/m and r/m are op also atm and take aggro rly fast
Most probably you didn't notice that me and WANDALEK were discussing ch/r as dps.

1) There is a big difference between rage generation for tanking and dpsing champion. As a dps there is no chance to keep Rune Overload up in longer fights just by white hits (not to mention you have to stop dps for a while on some bosses...)

2) as a dps I really don't care about holding aggro over anybody, DPS is the only thing that matters. Atm my tests as well as tests of other ch/r are showing that 2-h hammer results in higher dps than 1-h hammer + dagger.

3) I can hold aggro without lvl 70 elite and without k/p aggro debuff and without Rune pulse (with iss for def on) and without aggro pot and without Rune Overload. I am absolutelly sure I won't have any troubles to hold aggro with 2-h hammer.

Not to mention that I still keep 1-h hammer and dagger for tanking and 2-h hammer is just for dpsing...
:shit:

Ganondworf

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37

Wednesday, September 18th 2013, 5:55pm

@ 1) im a full dps champion, and still tanking in that mode too for bosses even bethomia hm, my rune overload is Always permanent when im fighting on bosses so lol if you fail

2) ch/r, the second rogue part is not just there for nothing, u get the chance wearing a dagger and u just mess it up not doing, if u want 2nd hammer go for ch/w, will u do more dmg no way :d, because u are pretty sure wrong statted u won't see the dps difference

3) i know we can hold aggro easy, i don't even need any skills, only using shadow stab keeps aggro on me rest is bonus dps :)

I don't rly see point not using 1h + dagger cause that why this combo class is mention for + permanent skill of your rogue, I don't know what server u on, but on my server the champs laugh if they just hear this...

38

Wednesday, September 18th 2013, 11:47pm

1) show us video with Rune Overload runing for 45+ seconds at 3rd, 5th or 6th beth bosses wit hyou as dps. And no VN cape, rage pot or iss allowed once the fight start. Without a video prove I don't take your post seriously.

2) You are right, my statting is indeed wrong. I buff up to 270k patt and 130k hp while still having 10x */def on my gear. Since I am half tank and my patt is the same as yours (but you are full DPS), I must be doing something wrong, and I would appreciate any advice from you on how to stat properly.

3) In one post you are saying I will need speed attacks for constant aggro, in another post you claim you only use shadow stab to keep aggro. Please be more consistent in your posts. It is hard to discuss with you, if you change your oppinions in every second post.

I will try to write it again for you in a more simple way: I don't care what do you think about how ch/r combo is supposed to work. I simply took 1-h hammer and dagger and 2-h hammer and checked what gives me more dps. I can explain the reasons why 2-h hammer is better in my case, but I doubt you will even read it...

As for the server I play on, just click on my name, you will find that info there....
I just find out you already visited my profile and most probably you missed that I play on Siochain. So once again for you, I play on Siochain...
:shit:

39

Thursday, September 19th 2013, 12:22am

1) I suppose 6-th boss would be pretty easy to regenerate rage, so not so good example.
2) Yeha you must do something wrong. LOL


As for 2h vs 2x1h it would depend on boss tactic, time of fight and if your shield form is active (as now it is not necessary must have on DPS). DK how it was tested, but I suppose results would be different on different bosses and still I think 2x1h is only viable while wielding fast dagger not necessary fast+good (ghosts etc.).

40

Thursday, September 19th 2013, 9:46am

1) I suppose 6-th boss would be pretty easy to regenerate rage, so not so good example.

Most of the time one freeze is enough to break Rune Overload ;)

As I see it Dual wielding will be better in long fights without interruptions so Rune Overload and more Chain Drives will compensate the lower dps of 1-h hammer.

As for shorter fights, the boss can be burned before the Rune Overload stops, so the only benefit of dual wielding would be more Rune Pulses. From my experiences I can say that Dim Light (1.8) + Raid VII is not fast enough. Maybe the 1.4 dagger together with Raid X would do it.

Also 2-h hammer has the benefit of 1k crit on ghost stat.


This is the same situation as the comparison of ch/r vs w/wd :D. I am not saying that 2h hammer is a must have for dps ch/r, nor saying that the result is game breaking. I just wanted to share the results of my tests with other ppl...
:shit:

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